Who has a supercharged intercooled fox ?

[Southern]

So what are the tricks? Sounds like normal stuff that lots of people have (there I go again with the lots of people statement)

[Meegs]

the tricks are I'm running out of them. S/C, nos, windage tray......i need more. I did fab up a "cool can" but did not like how it functioned. I need to bend the ears of other hot-rodders to come up with more tricks. Intercoolers being one of them!

here's the deal. I want a big power 5.0 with stock valve covers, iron heads, stock intake. anything and everything else is going to be modded. that's my deal, thats what i want. i want to build a big power 5.0 with a stupid old powerdyne.

but i need more tricks...or what ever you call it.

[Roast'em]

looks like lots of mods, and a stock intake. that's quite a trick!!

[EFI Performance]

stock block
forged rotating assembly 30 over, 306cid
arp bolts
windage tray
1.6RR
comp cams equivilant to a B303
World Windsonr Sr. IRON heads 2.02/1.60 --- newly o-ringed (oops)
42#, stock fuel lines
Aeromotive AFPR
Kenny Bell Boost-A-Pump
Walbro 255lph High flow
ported upper and lower STOCK intake
Accufab 70mm tb & egr spacer (tweecer tuned)
Bosh plastic type Blow-off-Valve
B&M powerdyne huffer&puffer
huge 1-piece crank pully with under drive accessory drive (U/D)
small head pully
Anderson Ford Power Pipe ceramic coated
SCT BA2800 MAF
velocity stack air filter, it's a big bich...
NOS Big-Shot 150~300
Tremic T-56
3.73 rear
shorty headers & race ready caps, otherwise flowmasters out the rear GT bumper
roll cage (chromed)
4-wheel disc brakes, 28(?) spline axels
white pony wheels (add one-thousand hp)
twEECer RT
AEM WBO2
100A alt.
MSD 7al-3 ignition

I'm sure i left out more

I'm trying to understand.

Are these the parts you are going to build? Or these parts and already on the car and it's running?

Is there a dyno run or track time?

[Meegs]

so ahh...you didn't see the pics of the dyno day did ya......haha

all installed except for the T-56. it has been in its origional container for 2 years now. but i blew a head gasket, that is why the heads are now o-ringed. no it dosen't run right now. it did run earlier this year and made it to porkys and stuff. I still have a few gremlins to work out......

[EFI Performance]

Nope didn't see it. Is that where the head gaskets blew?

[Southern]

the tricks are I'm running out of them. S/C, nos, windage tray......i need more. I did fab up a "cool can" but did not like how it functioned. I need to bend the ears of other hot-rodders to come up with more tricks. Intercoolers being one of them!

here's the deal. I want a big power 5.0 with stock valve covers, iron heads, stock intake. anything and everything else is going to be modded. that's my deal, thats what i want. i want to build a big power 5.0 with a stupid old powerdyne.

but i need more tricks...or what ever you call it.

I can totally respect that!

With that big shot I dont think you will have a problem making that power even with the powerdyne. Guys like you are cool and there arent enough guys like you. I want to see Steeda going someday. How much power are you wanting to make anyway?

[HARD ON RUBBER]

I dont remember where I heard this but, I believe, I was told that no matter how much you cool the air with the intercooler, the long runner street style intake manifolds heat the air right back to 200 deg. or whatever your coolant temp is. You have hot oil splashing the bottom and hot coolant flowing through the front and parts of the back and maybe egr flowing throught the center. Do you really think the air will still be cool by the time it gets to intake valve? Probably not. Maybe this is why nobody runs an intercooler on 5.0l street cars. Oh ya, now I remember, it was 89blownssv that told me this.

[Southern]

I dont remember where I heard this but, I believe, I was told that no matter how much you cool the air with the intercooler, the long runner street style intake manifolds heat the air right back to 200 deg. or whatever your coolant temp is. You have hot oil splashing the bottom and hot coolant flowing through the front and parts of the back and maybe egr flowing throught the center. Do you really think the air will still be cool by the time it gets to intake valve? Probably not. Maybe this is why nobody runs an intercooler on 5.0l street cars. Oh ya, now I remember, it was 89blownssv that told me this.

How hot does the air get when its compressed, is it higher than 200°?

[Sweet35th]

That's a excellent breakdown.

Novi2000 ,standard rotation, can also out power the D1SC. Pretty much the same blower spinning in different direction.

I don't see any advantages for a intercooler on a 5.0l car. You want more power, up the pulley or supercharger unit. For years Paxton didn't recommend intercoolers at all on 5.0's. They don't make one, they could if they wanted to, their claim was it was more of a restriction and reduced air flow.

Even the Vortech Max cooler I installed once came with a smaller pulley to move more air from the restriction of the intercooler core. The output temps went down, the boost pressure also went down, Air flow stayed the same.

This although, is a totally different story for the 4.6l. You need the intercooler for that application

I do disagree. And lot of this comes from seeing some not intercooled cars make some SCARY!!!! heat on the dyno, and I like to remain conservitive with the way every car is done. Over do the fuel system, over do the bottom end, be conservitive on the tune, and keep the thing cool..

Now the crappy part of the fox body computers is that there is no way to moniter air charge temp short of a PMS, or Tweeker, or actualy hooking up a volt-ohm meter to it, so all my basis for comparison here is constructed from monitering it on SN95 5.0Ls.

The issue without having an intercooler, is that the air charge temps, no mater what blower you have go up with boost pressure. You compress air, it gets hotter, you compress it more, it gets hotter yet. Sure there are some efficiency points that come into play with the physical charachteristics of some blowers and how they transfer heat, or as they compress air in the housing, but the fact remains, blowers are a very efficient HEAT PUMP.

The differance between running an intercooler vrs not, isnt always about making more power, its about making it more consistantly..

I can take a non-intercooler blown 5.0L and cool the intake down, cool the blower down, and make a quick hit, and the ACTs will stay around 130 degrees for must of the pull, and the car will make very similar power to an intercooled car that sees probably 100-110 degrees on a cool pull. Where the issue comes in is on the next pull the non-intercooled car is going to hit 160-180 degrees, where timing has to start being pulled because of the air temp, so now not only does the car loose power from the hot low oxygen content air, it is also loosing power because timing is being pulled to prevent it from detonating. Where the intercooled car will see 100-110 degrees on the next pull, the pull after that, ect ect keeping very consistant..

This inconsistancy is what occured with F7RATs car. It was tuned is mid 60 low 70 degree weather. The car was never cooled down during tunning, and never had signs of detonations. I would estimater it was seeing ACT temps of aprox 140-150 degrees. It was set up to pull spark beyond 160 degrees. It was plenty rich, and conservitive on spark. The car left, and ran great, no detonation, and life was good. Then we got 80-90 degree weather, his air charge temps start likely hitting in the 180-200+ range. (Why do the aircharge temps go up so much, with only a 20degree rise in ambient temp? Because just as HARDONRUBBER stated, the hot engine, hot coolant, and hot oil are now also hotter in the warmer temps, and adding to the heat soak of the blower and intake.) Now he stated hearing some detonation, and so at the higher ACT ratings I had to start pulling more timing.

Had his car been intercooler, the ACT temps would have stayed below 150 degrees, to apoint where only a degree or 2 needs to be pulled for the air charge temps keeping power consistant (well at least more so) and preventing any detonation, and producing more power because of the cooler ACTs and more timing.

Ive now done 100s of dyno pulls on supercharged vehicles, and I can assure you without any reservations, that when I do sequencial pulls on a non-intercooled car (5.0L or 4.6L), the power #s go progressively down on each pull, as the intake gets hotter and hotter with nothing to cool it down. Yet when doing sequencial pulls on an intercooled vehicle, the power remains very consistant pull to pull as well as air charge temps..

Jon (HARDONRUBBER) Russ is right, the intake manifold on 5.0L engines do heat soak more than 4.6Ls, and thus heat the air charge temp up. However once the air is moving, it does not absorb heat fast enought to have a large effect on the air temps. (that didnt sound right, so here is a real life example).

---A while back I had a 94 5.0L D1 Procharged car on the dyno. Intercooled. After doing a pull, where ACTs only reached 118degrees (thats sweet!!), I sat and let it idle, checking my idle #s, my coolant temp, ect ect. Sitting at idle I was able to watch the ACTs climb (the ACT was located in the lower intake just like a fox mustang, why, I dont know ask the owner, it would have been better in the tube just before the TB). They climbed all the way up to 180degrees. I then started another pull and data logged the run. As the RPM went up and boost came on, the ACTs actualy dropped, as the cooler compressed intercooled air was actualy cooling off the intake manifold. By the time I got the car into 4rth gear and started the pull at 2500rpm, the ACTs had dropped to 160degrees, and continued to drop the entire pull all the way down to 127degrees. And suprizingly, the car lost a lil bit of power down low, but only lost 7rwhp on that consecutive heat soaked pull.

With all of my rablings said, I will finish by saying. ON THE DYNO, I CAN, get a non-intercooled car to make similar #s to an intercooled car, BUT I can only do it once!!! Then I have to wait an hour to do it again....An intercooled car, I dont have to play the cool down game, they produce power consistantly, and repeatadly.

[Southern]

Nice explanation Sweet, if someone makes an intercooler kit for $500 I will put one on. Until then I will continue to run without one. I still cant justify spending $1400 for an intercooler. I can stand loosing a few hp I guess?

[93 RAT]

Your using a 8 in renagade crank pully? no wonder your car overheats. What is the supercharger pulley size? Paxton are in .25 inch sizes like 3.00 inch or 3.25 inch etc.

It has the stock pulley which I think is a 3.5 inch and I do not think that is the problem,I put the smaller crank pulley(that came with the kit) on last week and still ran the same temp and you still could not hold your hand on the discharge tube.I just figured out last night that my brand new FORD clutch fan is no longer locking up when hot,so thats part of the problem why it is getting so hot at idle so fast,never had a problem at idle before.

[EFI Performance]

It has the stock pulley which I think is a 3.5 inch and I do not think that is the problem,I put the smaller crank pulley(that came with the kit) on last week and still ran the same temp and you still could not hold your hand on the discharge tube.I just figured out last night that my brand new FORD clutch fan is no longer locking up when hot,so thats part of the problem why it is getting so hot at idle so fast,never had a problem at idle before.

Novi1000 Stock pulley is 3.75
Novi2000 stock Pulley is 3.50
For fox body applications.

You can drive your car around with the supercharger belt off. It's not going to hurt anything. I do it all the time. If you car still gets really hot and loses power, it would prove the supercharger is not the cause of the additional heat.
The chances of a brand new ford fan clutch being bad are possible.

[EFI Performance]

Had his car been intercooler, the ACT temps would have stayed below 150 degrees, to apoint where only a degree or 2 needs to be pulled for the air charge temps keeping power consistant (well at least more so) and preventing any detonation, and producing more power because of the cooler ACTs and more timing.

Don't miss understand me. I like intercoolers. But I think it's more cost effective to do a pulley swap, for equal power of a intercooler, on this application. $100.00 pulley vs $1500.00 cooler

I've see naturally asperated 5.0l have a ACT higher than 150, cruising down the road with cold air kits. The upper intake (like the stock units) hold heat along with cast iron heads.

For those who don't understand...
GENERAL FYI... The only reason this temp is so high on the Fox 5.0l is because of the location of the air temp sensor. 94 and newer have air temp sensor in a better place and reads lower. But you have to take in consideration of the location of the ACT when you are tuning a car. For the most part all engines are hot right above the intake valve.

[Meegs]

I can totally respect that!

With that big shot I dont think you will have a problem making that power even with the powerdyne. Guys like you are cool and there arent enough guys like you. I want to see Steeda going someday. How much power are you wanting to make anyway?

My goal for my personaly owned vehical is to open the hood and have "experts" discount my motor. I really want to open the hood and have "experts" say "You Ain't Got Nothin'" and then we go race and I blow his "expert" doors off!! I want that damn "expert" to get embarrrased by my no nothing motor. I WANT to open the hood and have that same damn "expert" say ~"Ah, powerdyne, stock intake, iron heads....Bla. that car right there only has AT MOST 250rwhp!"
I was that "expert" once in my life!!! i hang out with a bunch of Mopar guys and one of them had an (early 90's/late 80's)Omni GLHS. Totally discounted him untill he blew my doors off and i was like....WTF! dem damn lil cars pull low 12 seconds!!!!!! I could not believe my eyes! Later on our way back from Cedar Falls I blew up his car!!! yeah, revenge was had

? how much rwhp will it make? Speculation at this point. but if i can get it safely over 450rwhp that will be enough to lay the smack down on 95% of the cars on the street. and that will satisfy my taste! I want to slap in the T-56 laying on the garage floor to keep my motor in the "power-band" for the blower, and then spray the sh!T out of it. Believe me, I have no reserve about blowing up motors, and i will spray the sh!t out of it I think at this point the 200shot will do the trick but don't for a second think i wont jet the 300 in the fogger system!!!!!!!!!!

I was up way late lastnight getting a 87 Chevy P/U running. after Car-Craft and things settle down a bit, I'll get the Steeda running again. all that is needed is to put the heads back on. 1 night in the garage should do the trick.

but then i am going to have to pay someone else to tune it for me......