Using Jrichker's Fuel pump test. Do I really have two bad computers?

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  • MadMatt
    _________________
    • Jan 2004
    • 13317

    Using Jrichker's Fuel pump test. Do I really have two bad computers?

    All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. You have to
    unwarp the wiring harness to find them. I would recommend that you use a
    voltmeter to check them out before unwarapping the harness.


    Fuel Pump Troubleshooting for 87-90 Mustangs

    Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on.
    It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running,
    find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to
    ground.

    If the fuse links are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure –
    remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the
    core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. A tire pressure gauge can also be
    used if you have one - look for 37-40 PSI. Beware of fire hazard when you do this.

    No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) Tripped inertia switch – press reset button on the inertia switch. The hatch
    cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the
    voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch

    B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built
    before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter.
    C.) Clogged fuel filter
    D.) Failed fuel pump
    E.) Blown fuse link in wiring harness.
    F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove vacuum line from regulator and inspect
    for fuel escaping while pump is running.

    The electrical circuit for the fuel pump has two paths, a control path and a power
    path.

    The control path consists of the inertia switch, the computer, and the fuel pump
    relay coil. It turns the fuel pump relay on or off under computer control. The
    switched power (red wire) from the ECC relay goes to the inertia switch
    (red/black wire) then from the inertia switch to the relay coil and then from the
    relay coil to the computer (tan/ Lt green wire). The computer provides the ground
    path to complete the circuit. This ground causes the relay coil to energize and
    close the contacts for the power path. Keep in mind that you can have voltage
    to all the right places, but the computer must provide a ground. If there is no
    ground, the relay will not close the power contacts.

    The power path picks up from a fuse link near the starter relay. Fuse links are like
    fuses, except they are pieces of wire and are made right into the wiring harness.
    The feed wire from the fuse link (orange/ light blue wire) goes to the fuel pump
    relay contacts. When the contacts close because the relay energizes, the power
    flows through the contacts to the fuel pump (light pink/black wire). The fuel pump
    has a black wire that supplies the ground to complete the circuit.

    Remember that the computer does not source any power to actuators, relays
    or injectors, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That
    means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to
    ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.


    See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) &
    Stang&2Birds (website host)







    Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds



    Now that you have the theory of how it works, it’s time to go digging.

    Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt. Blue wire (power source for fuel pump relay).
    No voltage or low voltage, bad fuse link, bad wiring, bad ignition switch or ignition
    switch wiring or connections. There is a mystery connector somewhere under the
    driver’s side kick panel, between the fuel pump relay and the fuse link.

    Turn on the key and jumper the fuel pump test connector to ground as previously
    described. Look for 12 volts at the Light Pink/Black wire (relay controlled power
    for the fuel pump). No voltage there means that the relay has failed, or there is a
    broken wire in the relay control circuit.

    Check the Red/black wire, it should have 12 volts. No 12 volts there, either the
    inertia switch is open or has no power to it. Check both sides of the inertia
    switch: there should be power on the Red wire and Red/Black wire. Power on the
    Red wire and not on the Red/Black wire means the inertia switch is open.

    The Tan/Lt Green wire provides a ground path for the relay power. With the test
    connector jumpered to ground, there should be less than .75 volts. Use a test
    lamp with one side connected to battery power and the other side to the
    Tan/Lt Green wire. The test light should glow brightly. No glow and you have a
    broken wire or bad connection between the test connector and the relay. To test
    the wiring from the computer, remove the passenger side kick panel and
    disconnect the computer connector. It has a 10 MM bolt that holds it in place.
    With the test lamp connected to power, jumper pin 22 to ground and the test
    lamp should glow. No glow and the wiring between the computer and the fuel
    pump relay is bad.

    If all of the checks have worked OK to this point, then the computer is bad. The
    computers are very reliable and not prone to failure unless there has been
    significant electrical trauma to the car. Things like lightning strikes and putting
    the battery in backwards or connecting jumper cables backwards are about the
    only thing that kills the computer.



    Ok, Im not able to get my 1988 to run with either the A9L or the AEM EMS. In both cases I will get just a 3 second prime up of 38 PSI at the shrader which immediately drops off to 15 PSI or so..

    Here are the results from both the fuel pump test I did on both computers.....

    Test Orange/light blue wire for 12volts Key off....... AEM 12 A9L 12v

    Light pink/black wire for 12v, key on, jumper ran.....AEM 12 A9L 12

    Red/Black wire for 12v, key on.............................AEM 12 A9L 12

    Inertia switch for 12v on both Red/black and Red....AEM 12 both A9L 12 both

    Tan/light green for volts, jumper ran, key on..........AEM .109 A9L .74

    Tan/light green with test light on batt + , jumper ran,
    key on................................................ ...........AEM lite on A9L lite on

    Tan/light green connection at ECM pin #22 with test
    light also on ground, key on, jumper ran................AEM lite on A9L lite on


    I dont understand why my computers are both suddenly bad? Please Jrichker or someone knowledgeble.. please help me figure this out! Ive been struggling with this a whole week now. Ive learned alot but solved very little. I really am not excited about giving up on this and selling everything off. I have invested almost 12 grand and a large part of my last 3 years into this hobby.


    I have my doubts on how I understood and performed the tests. Perhaps I was supposed to leave the key on or leave the fuel pump jumped?

    I have barely slept in the past week due to this car and Im ready to throw in the towel

    I went drifting through the capitols of tin
    where men cant walk or freely talk
    and sons turn their fathers in
  • DNeinstadt
    Administrator
    Admin
    • Oct 2002
    • 12577

    #2
    When you turn the key on does the fuel pump "prime" by itself?

    Dan
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This post has been edited by D9

    Originally posted by Slow35th

    Comment

    • MadMatt
      _________________
      • Jan 2004
      • 13317

      #3
      Originally posted by DNeinstadt
      When you turn the key on does the fuel pump "prime" by itself?

      Dan
      yes. and then it dies. according to the tests the wires to the relay are solid. The relay is brandnew just like the last one I pulled out. this test doesnt make any sense!!!! Either that its my sleep deprivation.

      I went drifting through the capitols of tin
      where men cant walk or freely talk
      and sons turn their fathers in

      Comment

      • Sweet35th
        Tuning Deity
        • Oct 2002
        • 4768

        #4
        With the Key on, the pump is only supposed to run momentarily, then stop.
        I send myself PM's so I roll with a full inbox! Sweet35th style!

        Comment

        • mnstang
          Bookending TCS
          • Oct 2002
          • 33500

          #5
          so the eec just isn't giving the ground to the relay when you're cranking, but it is initially when you turn the key on? that's what i got from it since the tests you did, looks like the circuit is good.

          the eec needs to see an rpm signal to turn the fuel pump on again after the initial prime. did you mess with your ignition system at all, or any reason it wouldn't see the rpm signal? does the tach move when you crank the engine?

          i'd check that stuff since it seems the circuit is good and you have 2 computers acting the same way.
          if you really can't figure it out, it would be incredibely easy to just run the fuel pump with a manual switch on the ground side of that fuel pump relay. it wouldn't be the ideal fix, but it would beat selling your car too.

          ps, have you checked that KAM1 wire with the key on?

          Comment

          • MadMatt
            _________________
            • Jan 2004
            • 13317

            #6
            Originally posted by Sweet35th
            With the Key on, the pump is only supposed to run momentarily, then stop.
            I understand. The issue is that it doesnt keep the pressure and fire it through the injectors! Initially at prime up it builds PSI to 38 on the shrader then it goes to 15psi Never got an answer why the fuel system doesnt work after that point!

            It does run with this but even then the fuel pressure stays at 38. Even if I try to raise the pressure on the FPR. The Aeromotive FRP doesnt leak and has low usage, the Walbro 255 forced ind pump was replaced last year
            Last edited by MadMatt; 05-13-2006, 10:59 AM.

            I went drifting through the capitols of tin
            where men cant walk or freely talk
            and sons turn their fathers in

            Comment

            • MadMatt
              _________________
              • Jan 2004
              • 13317

              #7
              Originally posted by mnstang
              so the eec just isn't giving the ground to the relay when you're cranking, but it is initially when you turn the key on? that's what i got from it since the tests you did, looks like the circuit is good.

              the eec needs to see an rpm signal to turn the fuel pump on again after the initial prime. did you mess with your ignition system at all, or any reason it wouldn't see the rpm signal? does the tach move when you crank the engine?

              i'd check that stuff since it seems the circuit is good and you have 2 computers acting the same way.
              if you really can't figure it out, it would be incredibely easy to just run the fuel pump with a manual switch on the ground side of that fuel pump relay. it wouldn't be the ideal fix, but it would beat selling your car too.

              ps, have you checked that KAM1 wire with the key on?
              The PIP circuit was separated by me and miswired. I followed AEM's bullshit instructions. Thier pinout was correct ONLY IF YOU READ IT OFF A FUCKING MIRROR!! ( It wouldve been nice if they noted a mirror was needed while dicphering thier diagram!)

              Minstang, You got tests for me? I'll do them! KAmem#1 works. I used that point to check my test light against ground right before I checked connector pin #22 with the computers disconnected

              I went drifting through the capitols of tin
              where men cant walk or freely talk
              and sons turn their fathers in

              Comment

              • mnstang
                Bookending TCS
                • Oct 2002
                • 33500

                #8
                do you have a more complete wiring diagram online to look at?

                i thought about it some more, the eec must be getting a good tach signal if the thing runs when you jump the fuel pump.

                did you get everything fixed that you miswired?

                i know them computers can be fragile, after the 1st time i ever took mine out, i somehow damaged it just from handling it because then when it went back in it was all messed up and i had to replace it.

                Comment

                • MadMatt
                  _________________
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 13317

                  #9
                  Originally posted by mnstang
                  do you have a more complete wiring diagram online to look at?

                  i thought about it some more, the eec must be getting a good tach signal if the thing runs when you jump the fuel pump.

                  did you get everything fixed that you miswired?

                  i know them computers can be fragile, after the 1st time i ever took mine out, i somehow damaged it just from handling it because then when it went back in it was all messed up and i had to replace it.

                  Yes. I can post one. I dont think it was in the above test but it might have been.

                  The EEC is indeed getting its PIP. When was miswired it didnt spark until the spout was pulled. Once that was corrected the tack would move at startup attempts.

                  I fixed the miswire issue at the PIP. Thats why the signal is restored. That doesnt tell me nothing about the fuel issue. It seems everyone including Jrichker is stumped.




                  This one is pretty good IMO
                  Last edited by MadMatt; 05-13-2006, 11:45 AM.

                  I went drifting through the capitols of tin
                  where men cant walk or freely talk
                  and sons turn their fathers in

                  Comment

                  • mnstang
                    Bookending TCS
                    • Oct 2002
                    • 33500

                    #10
                    yeah, i'd borrow someone's module just to plug in and try.
                    or, have someone try yours in their car.

                    it worked fine and everything last year? did you change anything else over the winter?

                    Comment

                    • Novi2KGT
                      TCS Homer
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 1758

                      #11
                      Did you mention that you are using an Aeromotive Regulator? If so I would say that is probably your problem. Throw a stock one back on to see if that corrects it...then if it does put a Kirban on. I wouldn't trust a brand new Aeromotive.
                      Last edited by Novi2KGT; 05-13-2006, 12:13 PM.

                      Comment

                      • MadMatt
                        _________________
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 13317

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mnstang
                        yeah, i'd borrow someone's module just to plug in and try.
                        or, have someone try yours in their car.

                        it worked fine and everything last year? did you change anything else over the winter?

                        Ive borrowed a module from worduphomefry and a coil from sloh5oh.
                        I ohmed both TFIs and they check out.
                        I also used new dialetric grease on both then swapped them onto the other dists.
                        Ive used both coils and both different computers. Ive tried many many tests and my brain is complete mush right now.

                        After all this I just went out to the garage 5 minutes ago and grounded the fuel pump. Now it seems I have a spark issue all over again!! WTF!!!

                        I went drifting through the capitols of tin
                        where men cant walk or freely talk
                        and sons turn their fathers in

                        Comment

                        • MadMatt
                          _________________
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 13317

                          #13
                          There are too many variables. It sucks so bad being an Obsessive-Compulsive. I need closesure but I have to goto sleep

                          I went drifting through the capitols of tin
                          where men cant walk or freely talk
                          and sons turn their fathers in

                          Comment

                          • MadMatt
                            _________________
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 13317

                            #14
                            Ok, Im reasonably fresh minded right now after 12 hours of sleep.

                            I posted this on a handful of boards.

                            The responses were possible ground issues.

                            Well, my most recent tests were closely inspecting the ECU connector for loose pins and OHMing things out.

                            I (Once again) ohmed out the PIP signal wire from the TFI to its pin#56 - it's good

                            I ohmed ECU ground pins #20,#40,#60 against the nearest green(ground) screw - they were good.

                            I also Ohmed pin#45 to my AEM 5 bar MAPS signal point on the plug and it checked out..

                            Opon looking for loose pins...I did find a loose #50 which goes to the MAF conversion plug's blue wire (not needed as Im going back to SD)

                            I noticed that pin #60 is also being routed as the black wire to the MAF conversion plug. I guess I have the option of grounding it later if need be.....



                            I'm left with a nagging question about my MAP sensor change...

                            (In case I didnt include it up there ^^^) I snipped off the factor MAP sensor and used its + red, - black and its green signal wire for my AEM and its own MAP sensor. Since I wont be running the A9L anymore I used that green signal wire in favor of not having to route another wire through the firewall.

                            When I did that I snipped #45 off at ECU connector and ran that to the #65 of the AEM's 12 PIN INPUT PLUG.

                            HERE'S THE NAGGING QUESTION... does this interfere? Should I try running a jumper to from 65# to the (now useless) #45?

                            I went drifting through the capitols of tin
                            where men cant walk or freely talk
                            and sons turn their fathers in

                            Comment

                            • MadMatt
                              _________________
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 13317

                              #15
                              Another very popular question I get is "do you have spark?" (really? )

                              The answer is "sometimes". I now have found out that the advice I have originally taken might not have been best for an application where one is using 60# injectors

                              I think the fuel system might very well have been working all along!! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT SHIT!!!!!!

                              Maybe, I'm just having a hard time getting the car to start with these large injectors?

                              See, "sometimes" I'll have spark and sometimes I wont.. It could very well be that the plugs are wet.. although they werent before on previous checks - maybe this is the case now?

                              Im going to check on that in a bit

                              I went drifting through the capitols of tin
                              where men cant walk or freely talk
                              and sons turn their fathers in

                              Comment

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