Goodbye R134a, hello 1234yf

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  • iamtheshaner
    TCS Homer
    • May 2008
    • 3566

    Goodbye R134a, hello 1234yf





    The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has issued final approval for the new HFO-1234yf refrigerant for use in car and light truck air conditioning



    So for those of us in the service industry this changeover is going to be a big deal because according to materials at my disposal the new automobile refrigerant is not compatible with existing refrigeration systems or HVAC service equipment. This means that vehicles currently equipped with R134a systems will become extremely expensive to service as R134a production is cut and any shop offering HVAC service will be required to purchase new "state-of-the-art" recovery/recycling equipment that will certainly draw a premium price. As many of you know, the price of 134a has been on the rise for some time now. Bottom line - the car you drive now will be MORE difficult to service than R12 systems because unlike R12 systems, it cannot be converted.

    Perhaps the various conspiracy theories surrounding DuPont's chemical patents and government regulations have been discussed here before but I figure the topic is worth another go'round.

    Although FREON is a registered trademark of DuPont, the first CFC refrigerant patent was awarded to Frigidaire (a General Motors company) in the 20's. Since then DuPont Co. has been the leading developer and manufacturer of refrigerant compounds for all applicable industries (anything you need to keep cold worldwide). R12 was used as the standard automotive refrigerant for years until 1995 when all new cars were required to be fitted with a new "environmentally safe" refrigerant. The conspiracy here is that DuPont's patent for R12 was due to expire in 1995. Basically, R12 is cheap to manufacture so after there is competition on the market the price will fall drastically forcing DuPont to lower their prices (and margins) to remain competitive.

    DuPont Co. was one of the biggest supporters of the R134a changeover and the Bronfman family (who is directly decended from the DuPont family and who currently heads DuPont) lobbied directly for it's replacement (political ties to the NWO and Al Gore are evident with research). Conveniently enough, the chemical approved as R12's replacement was proprietarily owned by none other than....... DuPont Co.

    Now, it turns out that R134a is bad for the environment as well so we need a new "green" refrigerant to replace it. In comes 1234yf. Guess who owns the patent on 1234yf? That's right, DuPont. Honeywell also owns part of the patent as DuPont is outsourcing manufacture to Honeywell but anyone worth their salt in the technical gig knows what kind of influence (money) Honeywell has with both the technical engineering industry and the US governement. They make everything and have been buying up competitive companies. Garrett (the turbo mfg) was one example.

    I'd like to know what you guys think/know/have heard about the subject. I even think a debate on how a compound more dense than air (R12) can possibly rise to the O3 layer and cause damage. Furthermore how levels of CL 800 times greater in the annual evaporation of sea water and volcanic eruptions are eclipsed by released refrigerant compounds...... I'm not much of a tinfoil hat guy but I can identify a pattern when I see one.

    What does the almighty intellect of TCS think about it?







    TCS cliffs:

    Dude, DuPont is like in Uncle Sam's pocket, yo. They own all the patents for the chemicals the gubment requires and when the patents run out, the gubment finds "ecological" reasons to ban said chemicals. The replacement chems are also conveniently owned solely by DuPont.
  • Notch
    Trunkback Moostang
    • May 2005
    • 23574

    #2
    Interesting.

    Comment

    • Fosters
      Typical white person
      • Sep 2006
      • 16014

      #3
      Gay.
      Originally posted by punch
      SFC is a bag of stupid.
      Capitalization is the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse & helping your uncle jack off a horse.

      Comment

      • Stormwalker
        ggggggggggggggggggggggggg ggggg
        Moderator
        • Mar 2004
        • 21617

        #4
        Political ties to the whaaaaat?
        Originally posted by Nick
        The choice is easy.

        Taxwalker.

        Comment

        • mnstang
          Bookending TCS
          • Oct 2002
          • 33500

          #5
          i didn't see where it said new cars will be required to run it and r134a will be outlawed, but i couldn't see your last link without signing up for some bs.

          i'm in the service industry. even if it is the case that they're all going to make the switch, it wouldn't bother me a bit. technology changes every year, using a different ac machine is the very least of my worries.

          it is kind of silly that they make a big deal about it, considering air conditioning is a sealed system and technically nothing gets to the atmosphere unless there is a leak. i mean used engine oil is harmful to the environment, but it doesn't harm anything if it isn't leaked out. i would just hope the new stuff works as well as r134a. r12 worked the best, then they switched to 134 and as everyone knows it doesn't cool quite as well.

          Comment

          • TheRoad
            Rejuvenated
            • Sep 2005
            • 1104

            #6
            As an HVAC/Refrigeration Tech I haven't heard anything about this, but I don't work on motor vehicle a/c's. This whole new refrigerant/Ozone safe babble is a bunch of BS in my opinion, but it does sound like a bunch of political crap. R-12 was the best because it was a single refrigerant with mineral oil, and r134a is a blend (of 3 or 4) refrigerant with PEO oil that breaks down alot easier and more often than mineral oil.

            R-12, and as of last year, R-22 were done away with because of the chlorine that was destroying the ozone layer, but before 1995, you didnt need to recover any refrigerant, you could just cut the lines and let it go. What's even funnier is you can buy a can of r-22 is cheaper than a can of r410a (which is the replacement for r-22).

            Comment

            • iamtheshaner
              TCS Homer
              • May 2008
              • 3566

              #7
              Originally posted by mnstang View Post
              i didn't see where it said new cars will be required to run it and r134a will be outlawed, but i couldn't see your last link without signing up for some bs.

              i'm in the service industry. even if it is the case that they're all going to make the switch, it wouldn't bother me a bit. technology changes every year, using a different ac machine is the very least of my worries.

              it is kind of silly that they make a big deal about it, considering air conditioning is a sealed system and technically nothing gets to the atmosphere unless there is a leak. i mean used engine oil is harmful to the environment, but it doesn't harm anything if it isn't leaked out. i would just hope the new stuff works as well as r134a. r12 worked the best, then they switched to 134 and as everyone knows it doesn't cool quite as well.
              Thought the links were clean, sry. They haven't required it yet, 1234 just got approved as the replacement.134 will be phased out over the next few years but will be required to be replaced eventually. The equipment thing I think is significant. A good 134 recovery machine is close to 10 grand and its going to take years to pay for itself especially at a shop that needs it only for recovery to service other stuff. Not to mention the contaminants you'll see as people try to get around 134 prices and add stopleak shit to stretch their $.
              Combine that with the conspiracy around r12/134 changeover and its just a big stinky deal that raises eyebrows

              Comment

              • Turbohwagon
                Fhqwhgads
                • Dec 2008
                • 12835

                #8
                It will probably suck, R12 was the stuff.
                Godspeed, on the Devil's thunder.

                Comment

                • Stormwalker
                  ggggggggggggggggggggggggg ggggg
                  Moderator
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 21617

                  #9
                  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the political ties to professional wrestlers. That's what google told me it was when I typed in "NWO".
                  Originally posted by Nick
                  The choice is easy.

                  Taxwalker.

                  Comment

                  • Gipper
                    George W. Randolph
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 5227

                    #10
                    Oh well, I have 60 pounds (2 kegs) of virgin R-12, and 3 or 4 Kegs of R-134a. I have plenty of refrigerant to last me a lifetime of fixing the A/C systems on any of my vehicles.

                    Comment

                    • 95.0mark
                      MN is falling apart
                      • Jan 2005
                      • 21173

                      #11
                      So if there is no way to convert r134a to this new shit, people with current cars are screwed when their cars need service???

                      Comment

                      • iamtheshaner
                        TCS Homer
                        • May 2008
                        • 3566

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Stormwalker View Post
                        I'm still trying to wrap my head around the political ties to professional wrestlers. That's what google told me it was when I typed in "NWO".


                        With the expiration of the DuPont patents, Freon would have been readily available as an air conditioning and refrigeration substance for the entire world, including Third World Countries, at affordable rates. According to THE FACT FINDER, P.O. Box A, Scottsdale, AZ 85252, (1/16/95), DuPont owners have direct ties to the NEW AGE-ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT which, in turn has ties to the EPA and such luminaries as Vice President Al Gore. Gore has ties to THE NEW WORLD ORDER of George Bush and Bill Clinton. According to THE FACT FINDER, Charles Bronfman of Seagrams, who controls the Board of Directors of DuPont, led the fight against Freon, his own product, because the DuPont patents to control Freon had run out.
                        This is a summary of a conspiracy book being passed around the bomb shelter. If you believe in the NWO why not believe someone as rich as they are in it as well, right?

                        Comment

                        • SAMSONite
                          CAT 6 Racing
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 2854

                          #13
                          I can get any refrigerant I want for free including R-12. I work for an air handler company and just top my shit off if I need to.

                          Comment

                          • Gipper
                            George W. Randolph
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 5227

                            #14
                            Originally posted by 95.0mark View Post
                            So if there is no way to convert r134a to this new shit, people with current cars are screwed when their cars need service???
                            No. Just like people with old cars that want to keep their original R-12 refrigerant.... they don't HAVE to convert to R-134a, they can still use R-12. Finding a shop today that still deals with R-12 is the problem. R-12 in NOT illegal to use or buy/sell...... it's illegal to produce or import it in the US. Any remaining R-12 inventory (or recycled inventory) can still be used legally here in the US.

                            So, back to your original question.... if it's anything like how the R-12 thing was handled, R-134a car owners shouldn't have any problems in the future either.

                            Comment

                            • Darkness
                              Iron chef of pounding vaj
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 7595

                              #15
                              Hmmm seems a bit shady.
                              I need to recharge my AC system in the cobra.

                              Comment

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