Pentagon study says no link between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda

[LES]

I believe you have to follow an order no matter what you think of it unless it is an illegal order. I would not call that stupid, but it does not let you use you own judgement per se.



I guess I will defer to those above you with a broader look on things. I doubt a Sgt is privy to as much as you would like us to think

What truth?

It is obvious to me that as a career foot soldier it is your view that is biased here. After all it is common knowledge that you FOLLOW ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION and toe the line or you will find yourself drummed out of the military.

Remember, the nation has turned overwhelmingly AGAINST this war in Iraq. The politicians are starting to take note, too.

This war is bankrupting this nation, not just in the day to day cost, but the soldiers and civilians that are being killed.

What are we at? Something like 4,000 U S troops killed, 30,000 injured.

What you DON'T hear about is how many non-combatants have been killed. By one count, since the start of the war in 2003 there have been 80,000+ killed.

By another count, just since Jan 2005 there have been 40,000+ killed.


What is the monetary cost of the war? Over $2 billion A WEEK!

What are the long term costs? What is the cost to heal the physical wounds? How about all the mental health wounds?

How about the cost to re-build the country?

Yes, I am tired of it, and so are 2/3 of the people in this country. We have some SERIOUS issues taking place BACK HOME that the money spent on the war could go a long ways towards helping fix.

Again, we are fighting a war over some shithole sandbox third world backwards country that most don't give a fuck about.

Enough is enough (IMO).

PS....and just so you know, a person CAN support the troops and be against a specific war.

Couldnt have said it better .

[punch]

The blue text helps him drive home his point.

[CleanLX]

The blue text helps him drive home his point.

.....to Smurfville.

[sport the war]

[CorinthiansBlackGT]

Couldnt have said it better .

YOU ARE PART OF THE REBEL ALLIANCE AND A TRAITOR!!


:vader:



Seriously though, 80,000 non combat killed.. who killed them? US bullets? Overwhelming majority of them I bet were INTENTIONALLY targeted by the same assholes we're trying to kill.

The US does not (regardless of what you have been brainwashed into thinking) intentionally target civilians and they take all measures to prevent innocent loss.

That being said, the argument of "if we werent there they wouldnt of died" Saddam Hussein himself ordered and was responsible DIRECTLY for atleast 300,000 murders only a meager 14,500 ish a year since he came to power in 1979 compaired to the average US of 16,000 a year. The difference here is that saddam intentionally tried to commit these acts while the US directly contributed to very few of these numbers and other arabs were responsible for the majority.

Taking into account his personal kill tally, lets not forget the millions he's responsible for in the same way I suppose the most leftest could argue bush is responsible for the 80,000 iraqi's.

That also puts Saddam Huessien up there in category of all time Murdering bastards to the level of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot...... As for the ends justifying the means, you can say its for oil and money, true those arguments will hold some water, why wouldnt someone go to war if there wasnt an interest to protect. We had previous justification for the war (though the president pulled the wrong card when he called it) and our ends is a free democratic self governed Iraq, where saddams was the exact opposite.

Think of freedom, what would you give for it. Maybe its just a side effect of our actions but those millions of people will have a brighter future so long as we stick by their side and hold our moral obligation to see this through.

So he was only one of the top 5...

People need to wake up.

[HAULNSS]

I'm still waiting for the cheap oil that the liberals promised! They kept telling me that's why we went there in the first place.

Where is my cheap oil!!!!!

[GoldenPlump]

Seriously though, 80,000 non combat killed.. who killed them? US bullets? Overwhelming majority of them I bet were INTENTIONALLY targeted by the same assholes we're trying to kill.
.

There have actually been a lot of Iraqi civillians killed by US bullets, especially in the early days.

I have friends and family that were there when we went in, and they said that a lot of people died at checkpoints or just on the road....The Iraqis didnt know better and some didn't stop at checkpoints or drove too close to convoys.

It's nice to shoot off a warning shot, then to try to imobilize the vehicle if that didn't work....but when you are worried about a car bomb and you have seconds to make a "them or me" decision usually the warning shot, imobilize shot and kill shot are part of the 3 round burst of your M16.

I saw plenty of video of my friend in the turret of a Humvee lighting cars up for getting way too close to convoys. It's sad but with how worried they are about IEDs and car bombs I don't blame him one bit.

*edit* made text blue so I could really make a point.

*edit2* maybe a darker blue?
*edit3* perfect. Now thats a good point!

[sport the war]

YOU ARE PART OF THE REBEL ALLIANCE AND A TRAITOR!!


:vader:



Seriously though, 80,000 non combat killed.. who killed them? US bullets? Overwhelming majority of them I bet were INTENTIONALLY targeted by the same assholes we're trying to kill.

The US does not (regardless of what you have been brainwashed into thinking) intentionally target civilians and they take all measures to prevent innocent loss.

That being said, the argument of "if we werent there they wouldnt of died" Saddam Hussein himself ordered and was responsible DIRECTLY for atleast 300,000 murders only a meager 14,500 ish a year since he came to power in 1979 compaired to the average US of 16,000 a year. The difference here is that saddam intentionally tried to commit these acts while the US directly contributed to very few of these numbers and other arabs were responsible for the majority.

Taking into account his personal kill tally, lets not forget the millions he's responsible for in the same way I suppose the most leftest could argue bush is responsible for the 80,000 iraqi's.

That also puts Saddam Huessien up there in category of all time Murdering bastards to the level of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot...... As for the ends justifying the means, you can say its for oil and money, true those arguments will hold some water, why wouldnt someone go to war if there wasnt an interest to protect. We had previous justification for the war (though the president pulled the wrong card when he called it) and our ends is a free democratic self governed Iraq, where saddams was the exact opposite.

Think of freedom, what would you give for it. Maybe its just a side effect of our actions but those millions of people will have a brighter future so long as we stick by their side and hold our moral obligation to see this through.

So he was only one of the top 5...

People need to wake up.

no offense to your numbers, but those are piss in a bucket to the real serial muderers over the years, that have been numbers dwarfing those of hitler and his war machine. scary to think about but man is hell bent on killing.

[Xtort]

no offense to your numbers, but those are piss in a bucket to the real serial muderers over the years, that have been numbers dwarfing those of hitler and his war machine. scary to think about but man is hell bent on killing.

Who is this "man" you speak of?

[Matt87GTA]

This has what to do with the fact that your full of shit, and that 105mm shell is worthless because the mustard gas contained within is deteriorated far beyond weapons grade use?

I'm full of shit huh? Are you telling me I didn't experience what I experienced in Iraq? You really are quite the elitist little punk sometimes Tim... I'll pay your ass $100 to come to the VFW and, in front of some fellow Veterans I served with, tell me I am full of shit about what I experienced in Iraq.

I don't really give a shit if you have *first-hand knowledge*. You sit there and tell everyone they're wrong when there's a fucking report directly from the pentagon. I'm sure they're just confused and your *first-hand knowledge* is somehow superior to the combined knowledge of our entire military

I am telling you what I know to be true. I am not telling everyone that they are wrong. I am providing information. You are trying to refute my information but lack the ability to do so since you have never been there and know nothing about the military. The bolded statement of yours is really telling about how you think about yourself and this issue.

[SFC]

I'm full of shit huh? Are you telling me I didn't experience what I experienced in Iraq? You really are quite the elitist little punk sometimes Tim... I'll pay your ass $100 to come to the VFW and, in front of some fellow Veterans I served with, tell me I am full of shit about what I experienced in Iraq.

Twist it a bit more. *what you experienced in iraq* has NOTHING to do with deteriorated mustard gas. I'll pay YOUR ass $100 to come to any science department in any of the major colleges in this state and inform the chemists there that mustard gas magically doesn't have a shelf life in iraq.

I am telling you what I know to be true. I am not telling everyone that they are wrong. I am providing information. You are trying to refute my information but lack the ability to do so since you have never been there and know nothing about the military. The bolded statement of yours is really telling about how you think about yourself and this issue.

You're trying to tell us all the pentagon report is invalid because you spent a couple months in Iraq.

I don't have to go there, or *know anything about the military* to understand that regardless of the days, months, or years you've spent in iraq, your opinion does not trump the collective intelligence contained in the pentagon report. Period.

If you spent a little less time trying to play the "I've been there" card, and a little more time trying to actually provide some factual data, maybe you'd be able to make a point in one of these threads.

Nothing you've said yet gives you any traction in disputing the pentagon. Then again, you're still trying to frame this as "Matt vs. Tim", when it's "Matt vs. the Pentagon report". Which is why *shock* nobody buys it.

[Max Power]

I'm full of shit huh? Are you telling me I didn't experience what I experienced in Iraq? You really are quite the elitist little punk sometimes Tim... I'll pay your ass $100 to come to the VFW and, in front of some fellow Veterans I served with, tell me I am full of shit about what I experienced in Iraq.

There it is, the Double Dog Dare!

[SFC]

There it is, the Double Dog Dare!

If you try to say mustard gas has a shelf life of 5 years, I'll get my friends together and we'll beat you up. THAT will show you!!!111

[Matt87GTA]

I believe you have to follow an order no matter what you think of it unless it is an illegal order. I would not call that stupid, but it does not let you use you own judgement per se.

I guess I will defer to those above you with a broader look on things. I doubt a Sgt is privy to as much as you would like us to think

It is obvious to me that as a career foot soldier it is your view that is biased here. After all it is common knowledge that you FOLLOW ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION and toe the line or you will find yourself drummed out of the military.

Have you ever served in any branch of the military?

This war is bankrupting this nation, not just in the day to day cost, but the soldiers and civilians that are being killed.

Wrong. The money spent in Iraq represents a fraction of what is spent by the government. Maybe you better research the budget and spending levels before making such a comment.

Yes, I am tired of it, and so are 2/3 of the people in this country. We have some SERIOUS issues taking place BACK HOME that the money spent on the war could go a long ways towards helping fix.

Oh you're tired of it? Because the war has been so hard on you.... Maybe that shit works with civilians, but not with me.

Enough is enough (IMO).

And IMO, you are not considering the many aspects of this war and why we resorted to war with Saddam in the first place.

You say you support the troops right?? How about the troops that fought and died in Desert Storm and forced Saddam to comply with various rules to bring about the cease fire in that war? Do you support them? Because if you let the enemy conduct themselves as they feel like it in direct opposition to what was fought for, you have just shit on their efforts and sacrifices.

But I'm sure that sort of thing isn't really important to civilians... Who cares about the soldier's sacrifices and honor, right?

[Matt87GTA]

There it is, the Double Dog Dare!

And he will never comply. So loose with the langauge behind the keyboard... It really is comical.